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Meme Responses
My White House
sunclouds33
So, I did the meme below for BtVS, AtS, The Good Wife, and Harry Potter. I'm still taking more requests. My answers are below the cuts.

the character i least understand
interactions i enjoyed the most
the character who scares me the most
the character who is mostly like me
hottest looks character
one thing i dislike about my fave character
one thing i like about my hated character
a quote or scene that haunts me
a death that left me indifferent
a character i wish died but didn’t
my ship that never sailed



the character i least understand: It's embarrassing because so many people FEEEEL him but I don't get Spike. First, I think I have a general distance from vampires or any being that's lived for hundreds of years and expects imortality. It's a zone of experience that I don't get. With Spike and Angel, it gets even more complicated with the Shanshu. I see them enjoying the hell out of the benefits of of being a vampire and having tremendous survival instincts at all time. However sometimes when the Shanshu or Buffy comes up, we're supposed to turn off our memories of them enjoying being a vampire to view their vampirism as the saddest and most horrible curse and root for them to become human as a reward???? To some extent, it's easier with Angel because this is the kind of "feel sorry for me until I unexpectedly use my superstrength to break your neck" con that Angel runs.

However, Spike is a bit of a mystery. It's hard to tell when the artifice and sincerity begins and ends. On the surface, Spike is hyped as hardcore authentic. Whether you see him as the rabble rousing vicious vampire, clumsy comedic relif whose plans are foiled, or adorkable poet. But yet, it's basically textual that Spike's image is calculated and phoney- see Fool for Love backstories. And that's also how I start explaining how he was able to wedge his way from Buffy's Enemy to "Spike is the ONLY ONE WHO HAS MY BACK", to the detriment of others in Buffy's circle. However unlike Angel, I get that there's a critical mass where you can't over-regard Spike as a smooth manipulative operator and socially skilled at knowing how to make it into Buffy's good graces because it strikes against his previous incarnations of sincerity and SO CONFUSING.

interactions i enjoyed the most: Definitely, the Core Four comes before all to me. With the sole exception of Xander/Giles which mainly feels like Xander reaching out and caring about Giles and Giles being mean to Xander so it's uncomfortable but also not developed enough to be a great dynamic. However basically all other permutations of the Core Four are great. Buffy/Willow, Buffy/Giles, Buffy/Xander, Willow/Xander, Willow/Giles. Then in threes, Buffy/Willow/Xander, Buffy/Willow/Giles. Actually Xander/Willow/Giles gets more worthwhile with the addition of Willow because it's interesting how those important characters but still side-kicks deal with Buffy when they're thrust together.

For non-Core Four, THERE'S STILL A LOT. To try to limit it to just Top Five Non-Core Four, I think Buffy/Faith, Willow/Faith, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz, and Spike/Drusilla.

the character who scares me the most: To copy your answer to this meme, Angelus because of the abusiveness.

the character who is mostly like me: Probably Willow- even though she's not my favorite because of the typical I IDENTIFY WITH HER FOR NERDY REASONS even though there's some of that but really, I gravitate to Willow partly for her *strangeness* even as it exists in tandem with the girl-next-door parts of her that are easy to identify with and claim as similar to a fan. There's also quite a bit of Anya to me- but then, I think Willow and Anya are eerily similar.

hottest looks character: Wesley, even in his nerdiest, least sexy incarnation. Runner up for Giles even though he's not the Newest Model ahem. For the ladies, I pick Cordelia even though to borrow Roger Sterling's verbiage, when she moved to LA it was like someone turned out a light.

one thing i dislike about my fave character: I want to do one of those cop-out "actually a compliment" job-interview phoney things and say that I'm disappointed that Willow doesn't stand up for herself enough and in a way that I'd like to see when other characters are trying to take her down for being reckless or a baddie or somehow getting above herself. BECAUSE THE STRUGGLE IS REAL. It's a phoney compliment but it's also genuinely indicative that I think Willow's moral instincts have merit but actually, she doesn't think through all of the merits of her actions enough to articulate it. This can contribute to how she gets things genuinely completely and utterly wrong when her instincts aren't on point because of a temper tantrum or too strong a motive to be bad. She has warm and fuzzy morals a lot of the time, but disappointingly unsophisticated ethics relative to her genius brain power.

one thing i like about my hated character: If you look to the comics, Andrew's technically been on Team Good longer than I anticipated.

a quote or scene that haunts me: HOW DO I BEGIN? Giles coming back to a police-scene house at the end of Passion, Buffy's monologue to Giles and Willow about having to kill Angel ("I told him I loved him...and I kissed him...and I killed him."), The Ballet of Death in The Wish, Willow's/Xander's/Giles's death scenes in Restless, seeing any of Glory's victims after her monologue to Tara about how miserable it is for brainsuck victims, The Body. For underrated, the Queller Demon and Joyce's insane episode especially after reading local_max's great thoughts on the subject

a death that left me indifferent: The Chosen deaths really lack impact. I love Anya- but you blink and you miss the quickie impaling. Plus, it was her time. I mean, more than a 1000 years of living. Like you, I also first watched spoiled that Spike would come back to AtS.

a character i wish died but didn’t: Hmm, I don't really think like that. I don't think I can answer this meme for any show. I wish it was the reverse- a character I wish didn't die! That'd be much easier. JENNY CALENDAR.

my ship that never sailed: There's a big part of me that ships all permutations of Willow/Xander/Buffy. Willow/Buffy, most of all. You can have your Buffy/Faith, your Spangel- that's my favorite gay subtext! Actually, you can add Faith to the mix too. I ship all permutations of Buffy/Faith/Xander/Willow, with a reservation on Xander/Faith that her attempted rape/murder would need to be better dealt with.



the character i least understand: I have similar trouble understanding Darla as Spike- they're not as easy for me as Angel and Drusilla when accessing the Fanged Four's feelings. Maybe it's a blonde v. brunette thing. I really like Darla. I think she's so well-written and acted on the show. However, she's chemically hard to decipher. First, I don't quite get what she sees in Angel and why she gives up so much dignity in trying to get him back. Yeah, yeah- he's her husband and child all wrapped up into one and he did her credit as the most viscious vampire that ever lived. However, she really puts herself out and frequently allows herself to look pathetic with this fidelity when there has to be other tall dark and potentially viscious guys out there. I understand Darla's hold on Angel far more than Angel's hold on Darla.

Also, I don't quite understand how Connor affected Darla so much when he was inside her that she became self-sacrificing mother. It's actually interesting to draw with Angel/Connor. Darla did give up some dignity and let herself be very vulnerable because Angel was her *childe*. However, she pointedly believed in her own self-preservation over Angel's- like when they were beset by Holtz and his men and she rode a horse away from the scene. However, Darla did sacrifice herself for Connor, her *child*. It's still a mystery to me on what exactly made Connor different from Angel. I don't take at face value that Connor's amazing soul influenced Darla, because I think that the Darla-image probably sent by the TPTB to influence Connor was a lie. Moreover, I feel like S3 was telling a more universal story about how most mothers regard their children, even when they don't know how they'll grow up. However, as a Connor-fan, I'm not anxious to strip away this gilding of the lilly that Connor's soul was just especially powerful and potent. SO WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN, is basically where I am.

interactions i enjoyed the most:
But even though, or perhaps BECAUSE Darla confuses me, I enjoy her interactions a lot. So Darla/Angel and Darla/Drusilla. Lilah/everyone (except for Cordelia who ruined it in Billy in thier sole interaction). But seriously, Lilah/Wesley, Lilah/Angel, Lilah/Gavin, Lilah/Lindsey/ Lilah/Holand, even the smattering of Lilah/Faith ("Green - is my favorite color. I look good in diamonds - and I love riding in limousines." ) and Lilah/Darla ("Do you really have to ask? I'm in love with you." (all ladies laugh) Shut up, Lilah.") and Lilah/Holtz ("I said I'm a lawyer. I don't care about the law") that we got was all superb.

Also, Wesley/Gunn, Angel/teen!Connor (NOT baby!Connor), Wesley/Angel (for the darkness!), Lorne/Fred, and Wesley/Faith. And Wesley/Fred, frankly as a *light* friendship in the middle of the toxic cesspool that was late AI and a somewhat flawed romance that still should have had a chance to bloom, right itself, AND BE A CONTENDAH. Fred/Angel/Illyria is underrated as a DISSENT relationship of Angel, subtle in how Fred knows how a lot of what Angel does is objectionable but is visibly too scared or feels too socially/intimidated and indebted to him to point it out as much as she ought to but Illyria has no such compunctions.

the character who scares me the most: Angel, as I answered in the BtVS meme. Both souled and unsouled.

the character who is mostly like me: I never stopped to consider until now, but I have some commonalities with Lorne. I love showtunes and dancing and fruity cocktails (a Seabreeze with my favorite juices of cranberry and grapefruit is especially MEEE!!) and lots of color. I'm conflict avoidant, especially for physical altercations, but I'm like a moth to a flame when it comes to tossing out a snarky aside or wanting to have a debate just to chat and that can make me seem waspish and cowardly because it's not that I'm so sweet but it's that I'd rather chatty-debate than fight. I even have sweets-related nicknames for people in my life. I'm not such an easy going bon vivant and I can take things over-seriously and get melodramatic but in a quiet, side-kick sort of way so Wesley would be my other half (and who I thought of answering) but I know I have more fun when I get my Lorne-on.

hottest looks character: Wesley, of course. MY TYPE! Lilah, for the ladies. As I've said before, we should have seen them getting together by S1....

one thing i dislike about my fave character: Maybe this is more an issue with Wesley's fans than Wesley- but Wesley is certainly overhyped by his fans and I would argue over-hypes himself as someone who'll sacrifice anything for the greater good, no mater how much he loves what he's sacrificing. It's all well and good to preach sacrificing Willow to the people who actually love Willow very deeply. However fast-forward to when he develops ties to others here in America, he risks other people for Cordelia, Angel, Fred, Lilah.

one thing i like about my hated character: I don't *hate* Cordelia- but she is my least favorite character. She gets a ton of screentime but a lot of it is boring or ridiculous. However, it is easy to find things to like about *her* as a person even if she's a frustrating character. For an underrated thing, growing up rich sure helped but I admire that she's so sophisticated so young. She teaches herself how to be the office manager/business manager for a strange company with all kinds of limitations on advertising and collecting with Angel as a Business Cinderblock at the tender age of 18/19.

a quote or scene that haunts me: EVERY ILLYRIA/WESLEY CONVERSATION. For a particularly underrated one, their talk in Underneath about walls is so profoundly haunting. Many of the teen!Connor scenes, especially Vincent Kartheiser's brilliant choice to make Connor slightly unsettling at the end of Origin (IMO, beyond the dialogue even though I didn't see the script directions) like Connor is daily trying to deal with being two people. Angel leaving the lawyers (and anyone with them) to die in Reunion. ("And yet, I just can't seem to care.") "I got my throat cut and all of my friend abandoned me." The whole plan behind Not Fade Away. Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?'s flashbacks.

a death that left me indifferent: Cordelia, to be frank. I thought she was that much of a drain on the series and You're Welcome made me more irritable with her character. Also, I liked Doyle. But I was spoiled watching the first time, and I knew that he had to die to get to Wesley who I already loved from BtVS S3 so, I knew not to get too attached to Doyle but to look forward to Welsey as I watching AtS for the first time.

a character i wish died but didn’t: OOOH, I'VE GOT ONE. How was Eve left to stay alive by the last ep?

my ship that never sailed: Wesley/Fred, depending on whether you believe that they "sailed." What's the definition of "sailed" anyway? It's not a ship but it's a fucking tragedy that Lorne with his big heart and sparkling personality and arguable sexual interest in both genders never found a significant other. Seriously, what happened?

the character i least understand: kikimay, I agree with your answer of Ginny. She's completely opaque for an End Game Partner to the titular hero. I don't know how she coped with her S2 trauma, how she feels about being a Weasley, how her childhood crush on Harry morphed into adult love. Ugh!

interactions i enjoyed the most: The Holy Trinity! All permutations of Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Love the darkness behind Harry/Dumbledore, Harry/Hagrid, and Harry/Voldemort. For a possibly unpopular favorite dynamic, Snape/Dumbledore is such a favorite thing and I'd devour a book and any of their interactions, especially when Dumbledore took him as a teacher, double-agent.

the character who scares me the most: Voldemort, of course. BEST VILLAIN. Bellatrix Lestrange is also frightening, especially in the movies because Helena Bohem Carter is a living legend.

the character who is mostly like me: Probably Hermonie. However, I'm a Lunaesque space cadet.

hottest looks character: Cedric Diggory is so fine in the movies.

one thing i dislike about my fave character: Aw, Hermione and Flaws. That's a discussion the whole Internet has weighed in on- Highly Flawed Ruthless Bratty Arrogant Problematic Character or The Mary Sue to End All Mary Sues. I feel like everything has been said but to pile on, Hermione can cross the line between morally gray ruthlessness that can be critiqued but you can really, really make a case for as a child on the front line of a high stakes war and disturbing, self-centered, over-the-top vengeance that serves no one but Hermione's ego and anger.

one thing i like about my hated character: Wow. What to say about Delores Umbridge. I guess it's impressive that she rose to such a position of power as a hyper-feminine old lady. She's not a dummy.

a quote or scene that haunts me: Wow. TOO MANY THINGS. Barty Crouch Jr. impersonating Mad Eyed Moody the whole time. The Longbottoms in the insane asylum after being tortured. Harry entering Snape's memories of being bullied by James Potter and Snape's reaction. Harry and Dumbledore in the death-train station. In the movies, Ron's hallucination of Hermione and Harry sexing up each other and calling Ron worthless. Dobby's death. Everything about the Dementors. Frankly, the Harry Potter criminal justice system. TOO MANY THINGS.

a death that left me indifferent: I never really liked Siruis Black. Technically felt bad for the guy but as the adult guardian, I think he made himself way too much of a burden on Harry and others. So, I wasn't that sad to see him go.

a character i wish died but didn’t: Hmm, I think I'd like to see Cornelius Fudge die. You never really saw him bear the consequences of his incompetence other than leaving office, in contrast to so many others who died and suffered horribly from Voldemort's return.

my ship that never sailed: I shipped Harry/Luna and Harry/Hermione.


the character i least understand: I don't know! I feel like I understand everyone! Maybe not perfectly- I'm sure there's depths that I haven't pondered because I don't think I've thought about this series as deeply as it deserves based on its quality. However, all of these characters' are very accessible to me. I guess the closest is that I'm always wrong-footed that Veronica is a ditzy floozy on the surface because she's played by the incredibly sharp-sounding Stockard Channing who just oozes gravitas.

interactions i enjoyed the most: Diane/everyone. Seriously, she has on-point interactions with Will, Alicia, Carey, David Lee, and it's rewarding when she gets to interact with characters in other zones- Peter Florrick. Also Carey/Alicia, Alicia/Peter, and I've always liked the subtle VERY unspoken history between Will and Kalinda. Also Kalinda/Alicia and Kalinda/Carey. OOOH, and Eli and his daughter and Alicia/Lemond Bishop to include non-core cast members.

Also in a bit of trend, Carey has cool dynamics with older dudes- Clark Hayden, David Lee, Howard Lyman.

the character who scares me the most: Lemond Bishop is the best villain.

the character who is mostly like me: Everyone is so mature and businesslike! I try to play that role every day, but I know that it's not really me because I feel more flakey and soft on the inside and fakely professional on the outside. However, I think for the majority of the main cast, they really ARE that put-together and sharp on the inside too. So, I understand them even though I don't identify with them. Maybe I'm early season Alicia on the outside and Eli Gold's daughter on the inside.

hottest looks character: You know, some of the guys on this show all have a handsome aura but there's something off about them for me that inhibits any lusting. Josh Charles has a disconcertingly weak chin. Chris Noth used to be fiiiiine as Det. Mike Logan or Mr. Big but he's become....not *fat* but too *stolid* in his old age. Matt Czuchry is conventionally handsome but he has a punchable face (as is constantly noted on his role as Logan Huntzburger on GG) even though I know I love Carey. Actually Mathew Goode should be SO MUCH MY TYPE because I like thin angularness on guys but he's too much of an exaggeration of that type. I'm usually not this picky! However, yeah, The Good Wife has ostensibly good-looking dudes who I should go for who I just...don't.

So, I'm a total lesbian for this show. Because Alicia, Kalinda, the FBI agent that Kalinda was sleeping with, Geneva, Diane as an older lady, guest stars like Wendy Scott Carr or Caitlin D'Arcy are all very hot. Alicia is the sexiest though. Julianna's not just beautiful- but she's got charisma and sex-appeal out the wazzoo.

one thing i dislike about my fave character: THIS IS SO HARD. I mean, I know Diane has technical flaws and corruptions but she's such a class act. Like I said when kikimayanswered this meme, Diane is sort of an entitled second-wave feminist but it's hard to hate on her for when she actually shattered the glass ceiling herself with her own perfect coiffed head.

I don't want to say that Diane is *arrogant* and even *self-righteous* feels wrong. *Careless* or *naive* really feels wrong but there's some other combination of those three concepts to reflect how much Diane is caught-off guard by other partners' schemes against her or people who don't take kindly to how she plays both sides of the fence (like her liberal friends hating her devil's advocate work for conservative Dipple). I mean, Diane manages to swim through it but there's some vibe that she thinks she's so clearly on the side of good balanced with pragmatism that no one could dream of having a problem with her or no woman could dream of not wanting her for a mentor.

one thing i like about my hated character: I guess Jason is...a smart investigator? That hurts to say- I *really* dislike him.

a quote or scene that haunts me: ???? I'm sure there's some examples from the cases themselves but the characters' lives don't haunt me.

a death that left me indifferent: I dunno. I don't like Will as much as many- but I did feel bad when he died, partly because as I said in the UO post on Good Wife, his final season was my favorite of his.

a character i wish died but didn’t: Sweeney sounds like a good pick. I'll steal from kikimay again.

my ship that never sailed: Again, I'm a lesbian for this show so Alicia/Kalinda = OTP. Although, that's for the early seasons; the later seasons and Juliana's nonsense did turn me off. In the later seasons, I switch allegiance to Carey/Kalinda and again, I question the definition of "setting sail." There was sex and romance but they didn't live happily ever after because fate/Lemond Bishop intervened.

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Xander/Giles is one of the show's most wasted opportunities. There was so much potential there 'cause as you said Xander is reaching out but Giles isn't interested - also Giles not being at the wedding deserved a scene! That must have been such a blow to Xander, but we never got to see it.

Giles is very disappointing as the benevolent father figure that he's billed as to the Scoobies in general- especially Xander, Willow, Dawn, and even Buffy who Giles *does* try hard to help but Giles falls a lot. Giles comes by his Benevolent Father Figure Image to "Anyone But Buffy" far more based on how the younger Scoobies (and Anya) reach out to him and hype him as early books!Dumbledore than what Giles does for them.

But yes, Giles is particularly rude and uninterested in being a kind mentor to Xander, even though Xander consistently reaches out for Giles's guidance and approval and Xander cares very deeply and authentically about Giles's problems and life.

I love all your opinions because they are fascinating and well-reasoned even when I disagree with them, but I have to thank you for not being Team!Cordelia when she moved to AtS. THANK YOU.


Gabrielle

Thank you! I even felt weird putting her under "One thing you like about your hated character". Because I don't *hate* Cordelia. I get that she has a lot of nice qualities and doesn't merit "hate" as a person after she sacrificed so much both for the "cause" and because she manipulated to believe that she was helping the cause with her sacrifice. It'd be easier to put a morally objectionable but non-charismatic character down like Eve. However, Cordelia did far more harm to the series because a lot of her scenes were so boring or ridiculous. And it's interesting to just read them to inpute subtle negative qualities on Cordelia instead of blaming the writing- but I'm still left sour on Cordelia relate to how much she's hyped.

interactions i enjoyed the most: Diane/everyone.



(x)


And you enjoy Alicia/Peter YESSS!!!!! I LOVE LOVE LOVE their interactions. LOVE THEM.

one thing i dislike about my fave character: THIS IS SO HARD. I mean, I know Diane has technical flaws and corruptions but she's such a class act.

I loved this entire section. I adore Diane and can't think of a single thing I dislike about her tbh based on what I've seen (maybe one day I'll go back and watch the whole series and see if I change my mind then, but I doubt it.) "She's such a class act" is spot on. Ugh. ♥ Diane ♥

Aw, Carey/Diane is a fave. That is a good moment from one of my fave eps. Although, generally Carey/Diane is a positive, friendly collaboration- even though Diane's all female partnership which undermined Carey ended on a bit of sour note. I always enjoy the twist at the start that while Diane empathized with Alicia's first status as the cheated on, humiliated, brought-down-low political wife, she'd rather hire Carey, the early twenty something right out of law school hungry to make a career, over Alicia, the however smart lady who spent like, her entire life post-law school as a pampered, stay-at-home mom/political wife. Alicia had to win respect from Diane- and then, win favoritism because Alicia had pull as an older, even humiliated political wife that Carey doesn't.

Alicia/Peter is fascinating! It gets knocked because Peter is mostly a bad corrupted guy even if he has some good qualities. Pfffft. Like, that's a reason to knock them. This is part of fandom's rules were anything that isn't morally pure and righteously satisfying to watch is badly written.

Yay Diane!

With Spike and Angel, it gets even more complicated with the Shanshu. I see them enjoying the hell out of the benefits of of being a vampire and having tremendous survival instincts at all time. However sometimes when the Shanshu or Buffy comes up, we're supposed to turn off our memories of them enjoying being a vampire to view their vampirism as the saddest and most horrible curse and root for them to become human as a reward.

I both kinda love this and am eternally frustrated with it as an aspect of vampire 'verses because I feel like it's not deconstructed enough, though maybe that's me having an issue with fandom and not the shows, LOL. But basically in almost every instance I've seen of a vampire being like this, it strikes me as such a human (LOL the irony) response of genuinely thinking you want something because you think you should or because you have a rose-colored view of it and because you're not yet faced with the possibility of it really happening. And yet when it comes to the point... how many people would? (And of the ones that did, how many would regret it?) Like, I think Spike drinking the Mountain Drew in S5 could very well not have happened if he hadn't been competing with Angel at the time, heh.

but Wesley is certainly overhyped by his fans and I would argue over-hypes himself as someone who'll sacrifice anything for the greater good, no mater how much he loves what he's sacrificing.

OH GOD YES. I'm increasingly perplexed by the sheer OTT-ness of fandom's inability to accept their favorites not even being flawed, but even being human. The standard of "goodness" people impose on their favorite characters is just plain weird, so much of the time.

the character i least understand: kikimay, I agree with your answer of Ginny. She's completely opaque for an End Game Partner to the titular hero.

Her construction grates on me so much because especially in the later books, I just get such a strong sense of her being written towards Rowling's Idea Of What The Coolest Girl Ever Should Be, and it's so annoying. She's an anomaly in the books, too, because I can't think of another character whose development felt so unnatural.

a quote or scene that haunts me: Wow. TOO MANY THINGS.

Yup. HP has gotten a lot of backlash these days but you have to give it to Rowling, she knew how to go for the emotional jugular. Love all of the scenes you mentioned.

Sorry I'm so late to respond. The work week was intense.

I both kinda love this and am eternally frustrated with it as an aspect of vampire 'verses because I feel like it's not deconstructed enough, though maybe that's me having an issue with fandom and not the shows, LOL. But basically in almost every instance I've seen of a vampire being like this, it strikes me as such a human (LOL the irony) response of genuinely thinking you want something because you think you should or because you have a rose-colored view of it and because you're not yet faced with the possibility of it really happening.

Right. My patience for Spike and especially Angel moping that they're experience DA BIGGEST TRAGEDY EVAH because they're not human when they get to enjoy being indestructible while the humans die very young and sustain horribly painful and expensive injuries is nil. And for what- just a vague feeling of being cursed and at war with their demonic instincts and bloodlust (as opposed to the human feeling of decay and at war with the constant pressures on earth for humans to do whatever to survive and live comfortably even if it's rough on their conscience) and because it's an obstacle in their relationship with Buffy?

OH GOD YES. I'm increasingly perplexed by the sheer OTT-ness of fandom's inability to accept their favorites not even being flawed, but even being human. The standard of "goodness" people impose on their favorite characters is just plain weird, so much of the time.


Yup! But I mean really!

Angel: I don't suppose we know what this other dimension is like - I mean, besides fortress-y and demon-y.
Wesley: Well, based on the burn scars Cordy received from the last vision, I'd imagine fire is not out of the question.
Angel: Fire.
Wesley: And if the young man is imprisoned, I'd imagine there may be guards.
Angel: Guards.
Wesley: I don't need to explain to you that if Wolfram and Hart are behind this mission it can't be good. Just because Lilah tells you that this man is wrongly imprisoned doesn't make it so.
Angel: You're right.
Wesley: Nor do I have to explain to you that helping them violates everything you stand for.
Angel: Right again.
Wesley: Good. Then I don't need to convince you to let me go with you.

I don't think Wesley is a *conscious* hypocrite. IMO, he aggrandizes the people he loves and their importance to the world (especially Cordelia and Angel) to make anything in their service, no matter how dangerous to everyone else, into a Crusade for the World even though it's not. It's his way of comforting himself through his dually *incredibly* passionate Duties to the World and his Love for His Comrades In Arms which is admirable- but it ends up being his undoing and there's something stinkily elitist and short-sighted that like, Willow is more expendable than Angel *because* Willow, by the time of Choices, was just a young girl with some magic parlor tricks but not a grand destiny founded around being a vampire with hundreds of years of bloodshed behind him and a detachable soul.

Her construction grates on me so much because especially in the later books, I just get such a strong sense of her being written towards Rowling's Idea Of What The Coolest Girl Ever Should Be, and it's so annoying. She's an anomaly in the books, too, because I can't think of another character whose development felt so unnatural.

LOL. No matter the criticisms of the Harry Potter books, they're brilliant and JK Rowling was mindblowingly thoughtful and disciplined into constructing the universe on all levels- from plot to world-building to crucially here, HUGE ensemble of characters.

So, I try to explain the Ginny-problem as JK Rowling was committed to not get Harry and Hermione together. However, even such loooooong series with its loooong books (intended for children primarily, no less!), only had room for MAIN protagonist-development for the three young main protagonists in the Trio. Next, JKR's priority was older characters who were crucial to the plot- Snape, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Voldemort. She really had a big story that she really wanted to tell about the Malfloy family, especially Draco. By the time that was finished, JKR didn't have a lot of page-time for the other characters but she still wanted a big ensemble of more characters- and actually NEEDED it because the best thing about the books is that she creates a big detailed world that requires inhabitants of all stripes and personalities. So the extra characters by comparison to the biggie characters like Trio or Dumbledore feel like extras- INCLUDING HARRY'S ENDGAME ROMANCE.

....That said, Luna didn't get many pages devoted to her story and she wasn't a protagonist but she was still more interesting and appealing and *realer* than Ginny. JKR could have written an extra love-interest young character who meant a lot emotionally to the readership while being a small enough character to be a bit of a surprise and not sap up the pages for the designed protagonists WHILE STILL BEING A 3D CHARACTER.

Right. My patience for Spike and especially Angel moping that they're experience DA BIGGEST TRAGEDY EVAH because they're not human when they get to enjoy being indestructible while the humans die very young and sustain horribly painful and expensive injuries is nil.

EXACTLY. Especially since they clearly enjoy intimidating those puny humans with the strength and power they have as vampires--it's not only that they find it convenient to be able to bully people, they enjoy smelling the fear coming off them in waves. They would be MISERABLE as humans! Miserable. They love being superpowered, they love being able to swagger and brag and browbeat people, they love feeling SPECIAL.

I don't think Wesley is a *conscious* hypocrite. IMO, he aggrandizes the people he loves and their importance to the world (especially Cordelia and Angel) to make anything in their service, no matter how dangerous to everyone else, into a Crusade for the World even though it's not.

ITA. He has real hero-worship goggles when it comes to Angel especially.

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