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Top Fives: Top Five Times When Angel Was a Dick and Top Five West Wing Friendships
My White House
sunclouds33
My latest batch of Top Fives. I chose to tackle local_max Top Five Moments Where Angel Was a Dick and lokifan Top Five West Wing Friendships. More lists later!


Per local_max and my brief conversation here, I struggled a bit on how to define "dick". I ultimately came down on the side that "dick" is a diminutive term used to describe people or occasions where people are just nasty or stupidly mean in small but character-forming occasions. Angel is the most dramatically *monstrous* in his unsouled acts or his Twangel genocide or smothering Wesley or locking the lawyers in to die. However, it minimizes the monstrosity of the actions but also the potent emotions/cost benefit analysis to call it "dickish". It's something else. So, my list of Angel being a dick is Angel being stupidly mean and petty pretty much mostly for kicks without even a true motive to be a dick.



1. Xander: So, when you gave him my neck to chew on, why didn't you clock
him before he had a chance to clock you?
Angel: I told you. I couldn't make the first move. I had to see if he
was buying it or not.
Xander: A-and if he bit me, what then?
Angel: We would've known he bought it.

Angel tries to play this as a cost-benefit plan but it mainly felt like a chance for Angel to role-play at Xander's expense. I'm at sea on why Angel needed to play his unsouled self. Spike's plan was already set in motion- take over the school and kill Buffy. Since the plan was ongoing, it was already an emergency situation. Facially, it was a better use of Angel's resources in a genuine emergency for people for him to use his superpowers to kill some minions to sneak people out of the school and reduce Spike's army to make the fight easier for Buffy. Instead, Angel chose to pick the point where Spike was executing his plan to start with the recon behind enemy lines gambit- and he staked (pun unintended) Xander's neck on his desperate intelligence-finding mission at the most inopportune time. IMO, Angel saw his best role as any desperate attempt to get information on Spike to impress *his* slayer-girlfriend as protective instead of to rescue the people in an emergency. And Angel was cool sacrificing Xander to that end.

Then, Angel didn't even have the decency to say that he would have tried to clock Spike as Spike was leaning into Xander's neck but before he bought or to guiltily and sadly say that he only could stop Spike as Spike was biting Xander. Heck, Angel doesn't even make a commitment that he would have stopped Spike at some point before Spike drained Xander dry. Instead, he rather smugly stalks off with a "Whatever, Spike would have bitten you".

2. Angel: Fed on a girl about your age... beautiful... dumb as a post... but a favorite among her clan.

Angel: I hated the girls back then. Especially the noble women.
Buffy: (nods) You did.
Angel: They were just incredibly dull. Simpering morons, the lot of them.

These different quotes are basically in the same bullet point- Angel being a dick about the very women that he murdered, raped, terrorized. Big dick behavior to minimize multiple generations of women as morons- particularly when those generations of women were oppressed and made out to be morons by their sexist society. What does Angel believe- that the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century women were so stupid that they didn't need the right to vote or own property? When did the light bulb switch and Angel stopped hating women for being stupid?

3. Also in the same bullet point- Angel physically menacing people for no reason. We can file Angel menacing Cordelia over a damn book that he could have just asked to borrow or paid for, Angel knocking Lorne's hat off violently for Lorne basically just doing what Angel asked and tailing Illyria surreptitiously, Angel torturing Merle when Merle would give him information for a low price bribe, Angel grabbing Wesley and putting Wesley in a chokehold for Wesley suspecting Angel of the Somnabullist murders right before Angel condeded...yeah, I think I've been sleep-murdering, Angel offering to hold Lorne down if Lorne didn't want to read Cordevilia's singing, etc. There was no benefit to any of this junk- Angel's stronger than his team and informants and he needs to show that off constantly at their expense. Multiple dick actions for the price of one entry! Whadda bargain!

4. I didn't cover Angel mindwiping everyone who ever met Connor and murdering the real Connor to make an entirely different Connor because it's both so huge that it dwarfs the dick label but also I see the emotional compulsions that drove Angel to do it that puts it out of the simple "dick" zone. That choice deserves more words than "dick"- for good and bad. However, Angel putting a W&H employee to tail Buffy but Angel putting no one on Connor is big time dick behavior for both. Buffy is *the* Vampire Slayer with years of "taking care of herself and everyone else" experience and an army of slayers and devoted friends and family behind her. Buffy repeatedly told Angel to cut it out with the stalking throughout their relationship- and that's when it was *Angel* and not one of Evil Inc.'s flunkies spying on Buffy constantly. Meanwhile, Connor, The Miracle Child who's had multiple enemies gunning for him since day 1 (even if he's currently hidden by magic) and no knowledge of his dangerous Miracle Child status or how he can defend himself doesn't get "spying for protection". Angel's ex-girlfriend who just might bake and be the cookies that Angel can...eat >>>>>>>>>>>>> Angel's prodigal son that Angel basically gave up on (partly because Connor was a romantic and physical rival).

5. Like #4, this dickishness is best represented as a contrast. Before AtS S3 when Angel's several-year ex-girlfriend Buffy died, Boss!Wesley gave Angel as much time as he needed to mourn away. And Angel grabbed that to abandon the mission and fragile!insane!Fred who only warmed to Angel for several months to go to a monastery. Not to the hellmouth to see how Buffy's friends and families were faring on the hellmouth without a slayer or to see if Buffy's minor sister needed anything. Flashforward to AtS S5, Boss!Angel was all "Get the fuck over it. Stop drinking and looking sad and tired! And figure out a way to kill Illyria STAT!" to Wesley like two weeks after Fred died. The dickishness is already profound beyond belief- but it's further compounded when you consider that Angel's executive decision complete with memory alterations put Fred in W&H and led to her death.

On a happier note for lokifan

Top Five West Wing Friendships

Five TWW Friendships
1. Jed/Leo: Bedrock friendship of the entire show! If Jed and Leo weren't friends, there wouldn't be a Bartlet administration and there wouldn't be a TWW. I will say that while Jed is my favorite character of the Sorkin years, Leo largely makes the friendship. Leo really sees Jed in all of his awesome complexity- his brilliance, his goodness, his temper tantrums, the fact that his moral calculus can be shallow but masquerades as deep, his charisma, his childishness, etc. It creates a terrific balance where Leo practically worships Jed and Leo tailors his conduct to best help Jed be the best POTUS possible, but Leo still keeps himself, he's not servile, he doesn't enable Jed and Leo challenges him every step of the way.

I also love the realism from Jed. I think Jed knows that he doesn't love Leo as much as Leo loves him- and a part of Jed is uncomfortable with that but a part of Jed is also smug that Jed has a wife, and three daughters that he's very close to and he's the leader of the free world and a mammoth figure so OF COURSE Jed can't reciprocate with the same room in his consciousness that Leo has for Jed. It does mean that Lord John Marbury can almost be forgiven for assuming that Leo was Jed's butler named Gerald- because that's a little bit the dynamic. However, it does mean that Leo has to swallow quite a bit of indignity because he convinced his then less wealthy, less famous, friend who never served in the military that he's the one who should run for president.

2. CJ/Toby: Richard Schiff and Allison Janney really make this friendship so interesting. It's not quite set up as thematically resonant as Jed/Leo or Toby/Josh. But Schiff and Janney are so gifted and their usual "in the top three snarkmeisters in a competitive pool of silver-tounged geniuses" dialogue is even wittier and sharper when they're sparing with each other.

I do love that they *really* respect the hell out of each other professionally, in addition to their potent personal bond. However, they are both very commanding and intimidating personalities that like things *their* way. It leads to fantastically-acted conflicts that mirror both of their respective tenures where they were the boss of the other. Boss!Toby respects CJ too much to micro-manage her and stand over her shoulder dictating to her. Compare how Toby deals with CJ vs. how he deals with Sam or Will, especially post-S1. He gives CJ a lot more independence. However, Toby will absolutely use his power as boss to order CJ around and he'll enjoy being in the loop and tolerate CJ being kept out of the loop- and it's fascinating how CJ gets taken aback by that and takes it as a personal betrayal. But then, when CJ was COS, CJ also treated Toby with tremendous respect and independence but gave a firm command when she felt she had to and then Toby was taken aback by that and treated it like a trespass on their friendship.

3. Toby/Josh: The appeal here isn't so much pure puppies and giggles friendship- it's the *frenemyship* because Toby and Josh fight interestingly and their conflict lines feel very real but they're also there for each other as friends. However, Toby and Josh's most potent moments of "being there for each other" are very twisty and sad. Toby found bleeding Josh when he was shot. Josh called Toby's dad to force a reconciliation and Josh rather unfairly put Josh's issues to guilt Toby into reconciling. Josh was the first person to contact disgraced!felonioius!Toby in S7 and Toby helped the Santos campaign- but they resented the hell out the experience.

They do have every reason to fight. In S1-4, they have a roughly comparable rank below Leo so they naturally jockey for influence over Jed/Leo. Toby has cause to resent Josh (and Sam's) "to the manor born" privilege with Toby's big chip on his shoulder. Josh has cause to consider Toby a loser who failed at everything before striking it right with Bartlet as opposed to Josh who won at everything and jumped off the front-runner presidential campaign to follow Jed. Toby tells hard truths and confronts Jed and Leo and suffers interpersonally from it; Josh tries to hew to what Jed and Leo want and is a little allergic to truth until Josh is practically forced to rant his truthful feelings. It's rather remarkable that they get along as well as they do- but I do think that they see similar drives and pragmatism in each other and they can respect that.

Plus, they're hilarious and fascinating at the same time:

JOSH
[to Toby] Don't worry, I'll have Jews for the money stuff? You have an
inadvertant habit of putting down my Judaism by implying that you have a sharper anti-Semitism meter then I do.
TOBY
You know, the Ancient Hebrews had a word for Jews from Westport. They pronounced it Presbyterian.
JOSH
And by saying things like that.
TOBY
I'm just saying I'm from Brighton Beach.
JOSH
Well, Mohammed al Mohammed al Mohammend bin Bizir doesn't make the distinction when he suits up in the morning.
TOBY
As long as you have a good grasp of the complexity of that situation.
DONNA
What the hell are the two of you talking about?
TOBY
I assure you neither one of us know.

4. Mrs. Landingham/Charlie: I like Jed/Charlie- but I also felt...like a performative fakeness to it. A bunch of their scenes were golden but there's a vibe of Jed treating Charlie like a son in law like just when Zoey and Charlie start dating to force an image that President Bartlet is really, really nice to his underprivileged black bodyman. Their interactions are all witty interactions based on Charlie being OOC snarky or Jed conferring some magnanimous gift or attention. Charlie/Mrs. Landingham was a friendship for a shorter duration but it felt much more real. They interacted like friends- Mrs. Landingham opened up about new big things in her life from getting a new car to suddenly opening up about her grief at losing her boys. Charlie shared his college plans with her. They're unlikely friends- but the show owns that with Mrs. Landingham somewhat patronizing Charlie like she would all young people (her "sounds like a good mystery, sweetie"; "What do you tote" "....groceries") when he wanted his props for locating the check from Abbey Bartlet that a battered woman framed. Or Charlie treating Mrs. Landinghma like a kind of odd person which she *is*.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
I have never been camping.
CHARLIE
Neither have I, and I was hoping you'd take me. I'd be sitting there fishing and listening to the Orioles on a transistor radio.
MRS. LANDINGHAM
What would I be doing?
CHARLIE
Warding off bears, that kind of thing.

5. Jed/CJ: Even before CJ became COS, I thought that CJ had a bit of a Leo-esque relationship with Jed- but without the history and with a different tenor as a younger female as opposed to a peer male. As I noted on Leo above, CJ see the whole Jed Bartlet- the magnificent and the annoying/horribly disappointing so CJ worships Jed but she doesn't enable him. CJ achieves a Leo-esque balance in how she deals with Jed. CJ doesn't suck up and hew her ideologies to Jed and mainly considers herself Jed's political hitwoman who gets her morals from protecting The Great Man ala Josh. However, CJ also doesn't look to constantly be in Jed's face to pressure him into bravely fighting every battle and never compromise himself ala Toby. CJ is somewhere in between.

Also like Leo, there's a conflict where Jed loves CJ but Jed knows that he's way more important to CJ than vice a versa. Obviously professionally. Also, CJ has huge Daddy-issues and I do think that she looks to Jed as a dad-substitute since her dad is disintegrating. Part of the emotional resonance of CJ staying behind to the end of Jed's administration is that it's her way of exorcising her guilt over not being with her real father in Dayton to stay through her physically ailing substituent father-boss's administration in the White House. However, the last thing that Jed Bartlet is looking for is a daughter-substitute. He's got three healthy and whole daughters who are all very much in his life- despite his griping about Ellie and Liz. Jed isn't as smug about the imbalance as with Leo because CJ isn't his peer, there's no competition or masculine-clashes. However, Jed does put CJ out of sight, out of mind quite a bit when she's really struggling (the public fallout from the MS reveal in Manchester, her efforts to deal with foreign crises as a new COS from the misplaced uranium to the fallout behind Leo's secret trip to Cuba, his admission that he hears things about her relationship with Danny but then tries to pretend he didn't). And Jed's behavior there can be personally cold at best and reckless as a leader at worst.

Ha, I agree with those selections. "School Hard" is one of the all-time biggest ones. Even if we give him latitude on his strategy - and I'm willing to grant, for the purposes of discussion at least, that it is a flaw in the writing of the episode, that Angel's plan makes sense in-universe for some fuzzy reason that the script failed to articulate, and that we shouldn't hold Angel responsible for the pointlessness of the plan, we are STILL left with Angel throwing Xander into this plan without telling him any of the content of the plan and then letting him believe afterwards he would have totally sacrificed him. I mean, what the hell man.

I think maybe the "dumb as a post" and "I hated those girls" would be my number one -- in terms of epitomizing the definition of dick you are using. Because, while it *arguably* *could* have done some damage to Buffy to reinforce her belief that all women were failures before she invented female power with her fists, mostly he's not doing any direct harm here -- and in the "Halloween" monologue is doing good by helping Buffy feel better about herself. There is no pain being caused directly, no risks ala the one to Xander and no pain or threat of pain ala the jerkiness to his team. There is no risk being undertaken ala his laissez-faire attitude to Connor. There is *just* an extremely crass series of statements which give insight into Angel's brain and suggest his total inability to grapple with the humanity of his victims.

Ha, I agree with those selections. "School Hard" is one of the all-time biggest ones. Even if we give him latitude on his strategy - and I'm willing to grant, for the purposes of discussion at least, that it is a flaw in the writing of the episode, that Angel's plan makes sense in-universe for some fuzzy reason that the script failed to articulate, and that we shouldn't hold Angel responsible for the pointlessness of the plan, we are STILL left with Angel throwing Xander into this plan without telling him any of the content of the plan and then letting him believe afterwards he would have totally sacrificed him. I mean, what the hell man.

Yup. I do have a feeling from the standpoint of authorial intent that Angel's plan was *supposed* to make sense- but the script-writers failed to convey why. But then, I also get the sense that the authors wanted this trick to be seen as a little mean, but ultimately no where near damaging to their efforts to build Angel up as a swoony love interest for Buffy. Angel did come off many times worse based on a direct read of his actions instead of looking at a fuzzy-wuzzy read of his role and specialness to whitewash what he actually did.

Y'know, I was thinking, I think that Angel might have had a good reason behind the Somnambulist outburst. It's easy to write it off as more of the same given his other behaviour, but I think that its role in that episode itself is more this: I think it's important for him to establish *to Wesley* that he could easily overpower Wesley in one of Wesley's heartbeats if he decided to be an evil murdering monster again, so that if it turns out he is becoming an evil murdering monster again in his sleep, Wesley knows that he can't really handle it without huge precautions. Wesley's belief that he could take Angelus on could get him killed, and Angel's gonna make sure he knows that. That is still kind of dickish, but I think that read makes Angel's action read a bit differently and for a real purpose. This is different from knocking Lorne's hat off because he finds Lorne annoying -- in that Angel at this point really does want his friends to remember how dangerous he is, because part of the reason he has them around is to kill him in case he goes bad.

I'm still dubious, but I see your point. I mainly think that Angel choke-holded Wesley because Angel was irritated by Wesley holding up a cross and treating him like a threat. Angel wanted a sympathetic and *trusting* hearing from Wesley and Cordelia even though he was about to confess that he might be very dangerous so ironically, Angel demanded that benefit of the doubt by force.

Angel walks forward and Wesley threatens him with a cross: “Come no closer!”
Angel turns his head away from the cross: “I’m not going to hurt you.”
Cordy: “Oh, is that what you told Miss ‘third body found in alley’?”
Wesley: “Why should we believe a word you say?”
Angel laughs, grabs Wesley’s arm and spins him around to grab him by the neck: “Because this is how fast I could take you if I wanted to.”


Angel said, "I'm not going to hurt you" like it was a point on why Wesley shouldn't hold up a cross. When Wesley didn't listen and further challenged Angel, *that's* when Angel started the choke-hold. Then the conversation proceeded the way Angel demanded- Cordelia and Wesley give Angel a sympathetic hearing where no one is brandishing crosses or stakes protectively i.e. Cordy and Wes are on *less* hair-trigger alert.

Even though Angel may be dangerous for some unknown reason, and probably Wesley *should* have continued to hold up his cross protectively and maintain a fighty-protective posture from a distance instead of visibly relaxing into Angel's story. Wes and Cordy were a little silly there. Then, Angel does submit to being chained to to the bed. Good on him. But it's on Angel's terms so Angel can learn what's up with him.

I wasn't sure how to evaluate Angel knocking Wesley's cross-bow out of his hands in Parting Gifts. Wesley *did* start the aggressive action- pointing a lethal weapon at Angel. However, quite a bit of that is legit defense- Wesley's on hair-trigger alert as a relatively inexperienced non-super fighting demons alone. Angel, a known powerful vampire with a detachable soul and conscience, was skulking around the spooky, dark hotel complex. However, some of it is Wesley getting off on controlling Angel with a legal weapon. "Pip pip, *I'm* asking the questions." Some of Angel knocking the cross-bow out of Wesley's hand is Angel exercising his right to self-defense- to not have a undeadly weapon pointed at him to compel answers to questions. However, another part is Angel reveling in beating Wesley easily with his greater strength and cutting him down to size since Angel's last impression of Wesley was Annoying British Guy Who Sabotaged His Faithervention. I ultimately decided it was too complicated to put in that Dick Entry.

Edited at 2014-03-25 03:33 pm (UTC)

Heh. Yeah, I think you're right -- I had forgotten that Angel said "I'm not going to hurt you," which changes the tenor of the scene. If he really were trying to remind them how dangerous he was, he wouldn't *also* be showing how magnanimous he is not to kill them right there.

I agree that the Parting Gifts moment is too ambiguous. I think Angel has the right to knock the crossbow away for self-defense, and, given that he is doing that anyway, I don't *really* begrudge him enjoying it, though it does kind of set off some of the dick alarms. But mostly I'm okay with Angel there.

ALWAYS here for talking about Angel being a dick!

(1) This bothers the shit out of me. I feel like it's Angel trying to push and exercise his dominance over Xander and Spike at the same time? To see if he can play Spike in front of Spike's guys, or failing that, to show Xander how little Xander's life is worth to him. Dick move, Angel!

(2) SUCH a dick! Particularly since he's playing that card specifically so he can manipulate Buffy. ugh.

(3) This is something people love to let Angel and characters like him off the hook for. "Oh, well, he's bullying them constantly just to show that he can, but at least they know to be grateful he's not murdering them horribly!" Yeah, that makes it better.

(4) Yes, THANK you. He was SO irresponsible about Conner.

(5) I almost feel like that was how Angel acted precisely because he knew he bore some responsibility for Fred's death in some ways and he didn't want Wesley to catch him out about it, so he pulled rank while Wes was still destabilized by grief. He didn't care one way or another about Gunn abandoning them because Gunn was beating himself up too badly to throw stones at Angel, and then took himself out of the picture before he could cause trouble.

This bothers the shit out of me. I feel like it's Angel trying to push and exercise his dominance over Xander and Spike at the same time? To see if he can play Spike in front of Spike's guys, or failing that, to show Xander how little Xander's life is worth to him. Dick move, Angel!

I agree. Good point about dominating Spike. Much of BtVS acts like Angel is long past his old Scourge of Europe mates and the jockeying for power and control there and he's moved on- but AtS disproves that pretty thoroughly.

SUCH a dick! Particularly since he's playing that card specifically so he can manipulate Buffy. ugh.

Ick. It makes me wonder whether a part of Angel thinks that *Buffy* is as dumb as a post since he definitely thinks he can manipulate her and he openly relishes it when he's soulless. ("And you fall for it every single time!"; "What did you expect, a choir of pretty little birdies?") And since we know that Buffy is definitely no dummy but Angel manipulated her, it really calls into question whether this gypsy girl was about as sharp and clever as Buffy but found herself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I almost feel like that was how Angel acted precisely because he knew he bore some responsibility for Fred's death in some ways and he didn't want Wesley to catch him out about it, so he pulled rank while Wes was still destabilized by grief. He didn't care one way or another about Gunn abandoning them because Gunn was beating himself up too badly to throw stones at Angel, and then took himself out of the picture before he could cause trouble.

Good point. Plus, Angel was already cooking up his NFA plan- it's the interest of Angel's hairbrained scheme to make sure that Wesley couldn't properly grieve and heal and just stayed in a spiral of destablizing depression and then shame for feeling that way to be malleable to Angel's ambitions.

Angel's easy acceptance at leaving Gunn in hell to rescue Lindsey because Lindsey's girlfriend who's been lying to them all season said that Lindsey is the ULTIMATE EXPERT on a Senior Partners (which I saw no evidence of in S1-2 or for that matter, S5) is also disgusting- even though it's not as classically a dick move in the diminutive way that I mean it.

(Although to add to Angel being a dick in terms of Lindsey v. his friends, my Honorable Mention was Angel hanging around to beat the crap out of Lindsey and kick him while he's down in Epiphany KNOWING that Cordelia and now Wes and Gunn are in big danger with the Skilosh demons and it's right after Angel supposedly committed that he's going to give up the hurt W&H pointlessly vanity project to focus on actually doing some good and stop leaving his peeps in the lurch.

Edited at 2014-03-25 10:47 am (UTC)

Haha, I was waiting excitedly for your comment on this entry!

(1) it does mean that Leo has to swallow quite a bit of indignity because he convinced his then less wealthy, less famous, friend who never served in the military that he's the one who should run for president.

You know, I've never actually seen that being a problem for Leo? He just doesn't seem to have a particularly high opinion of himself. That startled little look he gives whenever one of them says something nice about him, like, "oh, you noticed me, you mean that?" I don't think it really occurred to Leo that he could.

(2) SO GREAT

(3) Toby and Josh fight interestingly and their conflict lines feel very real but they're also there for each other as friends

Ha, yeah, Toby and Josh seem to be really well-matched in how thick their skins are. They can push and yell and screw with each other all they want because neither of them quite seems to take it too far.

(4) Jed and Charlie were uncomfortable for a lot of reasons, definitely. There are episodes where I get the idea that Jed's feelings toward Charlie were specifically about how he wanted a son which is all kinds of blargh, particularly in context with, he was so weird and possessive about Zoe.

But Charlie and Dolores were really wonderful together. He missed his mom and she missed her boys and they never quite got that close, but I do think they filled those roles to some extent.

(5) This one was definitely complicated in some good ways. He really could be quite hard on her, in a way he never was with Sam the precious flower, but he trusted her, too. "I need you to jump off a cliff."

I do also like watching scenes between them? Like, actually seeing her tower over him physically, even though she looks up to him so much.

You know, I've never actually seen that being a problem for Leo? He just doesn't seem to have a particularly high opinion of himself. That startled little look he gives whenever one of them says something nice about him, like, "oh, you noticed me, you mean that?" I don't think it really occurred to Leo that he could.

I agree. I mean, Leo does have a problem when Bartlet rejects his counsel partly because it hurt his self-esteem. I think there are Two Leos- he's brimming with confidence about his own competence and the rightness of his political convictions. He lays down the law very easily with everyone. However, I think, personally, his addictions and his failed relationships with his wife and daughter took a lot of out of him and shamed him a lot. I find it revealing when he instantly accepts and embraces Jed after learning that he had MS and lied about it because when Leo was drunkenly lying face down in a parking lot, Jed came to get him.

Ha, yeah, Toby and Josh seem to be really well-matched in how thick their skins are. They can push and yell and screw with each other all they want because neither of them quite seems to take it too far.

Although, I do hold the rather unpopular position of loving their knock-down-drag-out fight in S6 because after years of knowing each other well enough to challenge but not take it too far and hurt, they lost control and *did* take it too far. Although, I do like that they somewhat healed their relationship in S7 right when everyone else was cutting themselves off from Toby.

4) Jed and Charlie were uncomfortable for a lot of reasons, definitely. There are episodes where I get the idea that Jed's feelings toward Charlie were specifically about how he wanted a son which is all kinds of blargh, particularly in context with, he was so weird and possessive about Zoe.

But Charlie and Dolores were really wonderful together. He missed his mom and she missed her boys and they never quite got that close, but I do think they filled those roles to some extent.


I agree with everything here. I also loved Debbie Fiderer, but I always missed Dolores largely because that dynamic with Charlie was never replicated. Word that Jed loved Charlie because he was looking for a son. And IMO, a big part of Charlie's feelings for Zoey felt like they came from how Charlie wanted Jed as a father. However even though that's weird and casts a negative light on Charlie/Zoey, it's more understandable from Charlie's end since he's still reeling from being left without parents in his teenage years even though he hides his pain with a lot of stoicism.

So, I'm making up for all the time I didn't know you and going back and reading past entries. As much as I am an Angel fan, you make some really excellent points here. He does play the churl card more often than is entirely excusable.


Gabrielle

I love your retroactive comments on my meta! I'm enjoying reading them and responding to them.

I think Angel is fascinating- well-written and by BtVS S2, well-acted by DB. However, I frequently don't *like* him- especially past S1 on AtS. I did write a counterpoint to this list-
Top 5 Moments Where Angel Was NOT A Dick which should be more fun for an Angel-fan to read. ;-)

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